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Post by sahearniitth on Jul 12, 2008 8:32:27 GMT -5
With all due respect, this is the second time i feel insulted.
You let me in under the impression that you had no open slots for rdm, blm, or thf, and then 3 weeks later admitted 2 blm, 2 rdm, and 2 thf. Also as i spoke with you previously on this issue, you clearly had a need for rdm as you asked me to come to the first dynamis as rdm. Moreso i was told by Sydney that you were really psyched to get me into rb with the jobs i had, and that you were happy to get me good gear for jobs like rdm, blm, and brd.
Then when you look for ppl to switch to rdm mainlot i am the only person to show any interest. I have very good gear and i believe i performed exceptionally well the few times i have attended as rdm; however, instead of rewarding a member who tries to come to every run and wants to be in this shell you choose to go outside people for your answer.
You wrote a long and beautiful post to try and hide your answer, which is "well, sucks to be you." I feel like somehow you had a run in with me in game and wish to punish me for some reason.
I would not nearly be this insulted except for a variety of reasons:
1. i have to pay for dynamis runs where i do not want, nor expect to get any gear (schedule balance).
2. One of your long term members who has a relic GKT comes to runs as brd wearing shit gear, which as a long time brd bother me greatly. Yet this person will probably garner both rdm and blm hats in a span of 3 months.
3. Your SH have no concept of how to apply the rules, please see dynamis-tav run where nin body drops and goes to a member in probationary status or leaving the bidding threads open until after dynamis should have started. Oh yah that same member with a GKT is the one who did the late bidding (6:06pm est).
Clearly, members of SnD are a minority in your shell, but i don't think that gives you a reason to take any of us for granted. I feel like you are taking advantage of your rules to get ppl in Anduril (or friends of Anduril members) the "good gear," and the rest of us be damned.
I have a Ph.D. in Chemistry, so i don't feel like being treated like an idiot. If this is your final decision i would like to post a polite thank you, and reasons for me leaving before you remove my forum access.
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Post by sahearniitth on Jul 12, 2008 8:33:33 GMT -5
My rather lengthy response (bored and havent argued stuff for a while)
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I am sorry you feel insulted but let me try to address the issues you raised.
In regards to the job availability when you applied, it sucked for you but please get all the facts right. You had Sydney proxy your entire application. For this reason all my communication concerning your application was with him. I was clear with him at the time your application was submitted that we didn’t have openings for RDM or BLM. I spent some time in discussing with him over weather you wanted to be voted on THF main or BRD main. Based on discussion I assume he had with you he said out of those you wanted BRD main which is what you were voted in on. Had you specifically asked for THF main BEFORE I posted your app (not after you were voted in on BRD) it would have been accommodated. I have already had this particular discussion with you when you told me you felt slighted over the RDM openings back then. I also want to point out the following quote to you from your application which implies you wanted to join on BRD main.
In regards to BLM, it was opened for members of the shell and I was able to fill out what I wanted from current members. I haven’t added new BLM main from outside of RB since November. In regards to RDM it was bad luck on your part, but between when I received your application (and the ensuing discussion I had with Sydney) it was almost 2 months before I opened RDM. This was as I have pointed out before, bad luck on your part since certain members decided to quit or go mia for an extended period after I first told Sydney that we weren’t open on RDM. Had I been talking to you directly (cause I don’t remember if I mentioned this to Sydney) I would have asked you if you wanted to wait around for a couple of months incase RDM opened up or be added on whatever job was available (as your application implied). I have recently had this discussion with Sonnus who joined SnD and so you are free to ask him about the amount of attention I gave him over his application (he has since withdrawn his application due to being informed that SnD expects new members to participate in their Dynamis otherwise his application would have come up before Ooovers). Of course waiting is always a gamble since if members in shell want to fill out the spots available then they won’t be made available to outside people.
I am always happy to get members who are flexible on jobs and who have experience in Dynamis. However I don’t get what you mean by I was happy to get you good gear on the stated jobs. Dynamis is random in what drops when and so its not really my place to say I will help one member get gear over another. However you HAVE gotten items for 2 of the jobs you listed so I am a little confused on this statement.
When I reopened RDM this past month you were the only one who expressed interest, so far this is true. I also took great pains to emphasize this was only available to members who met the criteria and hadn’t won an item in a certain period of time. These posts are still up. You WOULD have been approved for RDM switch based on meeting the criteria and being the only one who applied. However you made a conscious CHOICE to lot the BRD pants knowing full well that would make you ineligible at the time. I am not sure which shell Leosin is in, but he went through the same situation a few months back where he lotted Abyss cape knowing full well it would make him ineligible for a BLM switch. This took place after you joined RB so I am pointing it out since it is probably something you remember. I am also making Onime wait an extra 2 weeks to switch because he lotted a mainlot item (although there is more to his switch request than just that) so its not like I am singling you out. We always offer any openings on locked jobs to members first. We make no guarantee however to "hold" these openings for members who choose to lot items after they are given notice on an opening. And on certain jobs we have a lot of people who are waiting to join from the outside.
You are right that I try to be polite in my responses on forums. Sure I could have worded it similar to what you suggested but I can sympathize that you are upset over the current situation and seriously if I was to word things in a crass manner it would only show disrespect and a lack of regard for you. It would also likely make you MORE upset. Maybe things are different for you and you prefer that sort of response, but from my personal experience being polite in a response never hurts anything. I also tend to be wordy (which is obvious from this PM as well) but that’s because I try to be through when typing to address as many issues as possible. I have honestly never had a run-in with you so I am sorry you feel I am out to get you.
As for the particular issues that you said are adding to your insult,
I am not really sure what you want to hear about this particular issue. ALL members have to go through it. I am also not sure which zones in particular you are referring to. From your "need" and looking at items you got I assume you are referring to CoP zones. Well RB has been CoP heavy for around 2 years now and we post explicit stats about what our zone distribution is so I don’t know what you expected there. From what I can see you have won sublot or mainlot items in most ZM zones in past 2.5 months so I assume you had an interest there and based on you being upset over the mainlot switch I assume you have an interest in RDM items still which mean you are still interested in ZM zones. Well ZM zones form at least 50% of our runs each month and sometimes more while CoP NEVER exceeds 50% so again I am not sure what you expected. If you were looking for runs to be free, well that is never the case unless someone is collecting ALL the currency and/or items to fund a relic. We don’t do that here and let currency autolot so members are expected to pay.
While Sharps might get a BLM hat soon (and yes in the space of 3 months from RDM hat) he has been in shell for over three years now and has been on his current mainlot for two of those three years. He has a lot of points and since RDM and BLM have been going to sublot he is able to lock out people. I am sure if you had been in RB for 3 years or even mainlotting a job for 2 with your current attendance I am sure you would have been able to get at least 1 or 2 of the sublot hats that we have gotten in the past few months had you not already gotten them from a switch. As for his choice of job, again, he has been in shell for years and if he feels like coming on an alternate job once in a while as long as it does not disrupt the run I try to be accommodating. Not everyone is cut out to play the same role in dynamis for a period of years. I have extended that same flexibility to Sydney as well a few times when he wanted to come NIN despite being one of the best DD we have at runs since he has been in RB for years as well. Now if it was a NEED for Sharps to be on a particular job he would have been asked to change, but as is, given his time in shell he does get some consideration since its hardly the nor, for him to come on BRD.
This is really uncalled for. First off SH have a lot to deal with during runs. They have to direct people around, make strategic calls, deal with constant complaints all in addition to doing their jobs. Recently with me gone Cleo has had to be the solo SH at a lot of runs. He can’t sit around and ignore his BLM duties to deal with every single detail and with the pointless stuff people tend to complain about during runs its hard to give due notice to all the real issues. In regards to Coolshoeshine getting the NIN body, I conceede that he was on probation. However he can still get it if people were willing to pass on it since probation members can lot before it goes to freelot. I assume that’s what happened since a lot of the older members are sympathetic towards him for having horrible luck with drops in the years he has been in shell. If it isn’t then really someone should have pointed out that he was on probation since the SH in his run were probably too preoccupied to give a second check to the standings page. In regards to the locking, it was a slip up and Cleophie did say he was going to change the policy of invalidating bids posted after a certain time.
People spend a lot of time faulting the SH, but I don’t see members jumping to take on the role of being a SH either. Its cause being a SH in RB is extra work without any perks. None of us are upgraders or LS leaders trying to work towards a LS upgrade. SH don’t get any perks, we don’t have lotting priority on drops and don’t even get small considerations such as not having to pay for runs in exchange for the work we do to keep the LS running. Most members can show up to runs and a lot of them will constantly barrage the SH with complaints about every small thing but like I said I don’t see people volunteering to help out SH or cooperate and take some of the load off them. Most of the SH haven’t won much in terms of items in the past few years (1-2 items avg per year for 3 of the 4 active SH) so it’s not like they are working to try to facilitate drops for themselves either. Yet the SH continue to put in work beyond the runs to keep the shell going and when they happen to have a slip up (which in some cases could have been avoided by informing them of REAL issues and skipping out on all the needless whining) could have been avoided.
We don’t discriminate by shell here (for the most part, Dojo is an exception). We have had members that were in 1 shell when they started and then joined a different LS, often another LS inside of RB. To provide an example we have had members who joined RB under Anduril swap to Eminence and vice versa. Or go from FA to SnD, SnD to Eminence, etc. We put aside our personal issues with these members while we are at runs. As far as giving Anduril members priority, that’s BS. We had an Anduril member get voted against joining just a few weeks back. I don’t give Anduril members who have bad attendance any considerations I don’t give other members. Two of Andurils members are the last people I kicked from RB (which as you can tell is pretty hard to have done). What IS true that I can keep Anduril members informed if certain jobs become available if they are waiting for a particular job to open up before applying. That doesn’t however guarantee them entry so its a gamble on their part, one that I make abundantly clear to them. This is something that regular members can do as well since it is basically what Tyndal did with Davenger who was busy levelling DRK cause he was told we didn’t have space for RDM when he first applied. I can’t even give Andruil members priority on job switches in congested jobs since we have a SH discussion on them and the SH are all from different HNM LS. As for who gets gear, that is hardly up to me, but a combination of luck and time in shell (which translated to points).
As far as my "decision" I am not changing my policy for you so in that regard it is final. I also don’t remove forum access from members till they officially quit (or show up at another LS's runs) or go MIA for months without notice so you are set there. However I will ask you to think about your situation before you make a decision. Yes you had a bad start with no items for your first two months (since you had all but 1 item for mainlot and needed to build points for a competitive sublot). However after that in the past 2.5 months you have gotten 3 sublot items and your mainlot piece which in your original application you listed as your goal. So it’s not like you have been putting in effort and haven’t been compensated. Granted the competition level is high on sublot BLM but any members who can outlot you are people who have been in shell longer (or get lucky in Tav like Nagoshi). If BLM opens up before RDM you would likely be eligible for a switch (although to be 100% honest a lot of people are likely to be interested and we give seniority consideration if we get more apps than we have spots available). Your other alternatives HERE are to wait it out till RDM becomes open again which could be a matter of weeks or months based on ongoing attendance and job congestion. Alternatively you could always apply for a THF switch which you brought up at the start of the PM as something you are upset about that we added THF mains after you joined. THF congestion tends to be lower than mage jobs and since you have been in shell over 4 months you are qualified for a switch now. I also recommend you talk about lotting strategies with friends who have been in shell longer than you such as Alibeemac who can better explain the whole issue of patience and strategies with drops as well as the luck factor (she was able to get BLM hat for the minimal cost when others had spent 70ish points only a few months before her. However in the end if you feel like we are singling you out or are unhappy with the rate at which you are getting items and feel you will be able to accomplish your goals better elsewhere that’s your decision.
I have put in time into this response because as I said earlier I do care about the members who are flexible in their jobs, have experience in dynamis and show commitment in attendance. However caring about members and twisting policies to accommodate them is not something I do. I personally feel that based on the stuff you brought up in your application and what you have accomplished in your relatively short time here is decent but like I said in the end what you choose to do is up to you.
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Post by Cleophie on Jul 12, 2008 12:04:59 GMT -5
You pretty much nailed it, but I'll respond to the parts involving me specifically.
CSS got NIN chainmail while on probation due to an oversight on my part. Tav is busy as hell, there were few bids posted, half the LS was screaming for CSS to lot, and then he DCed. Of course, after he reconnected, people were screaming for him to lot even more, and I didn't think to check the DKP until after it distributed. Gawyn was one of the sub60 people who would've had a chance to lot, but true to form, he said he didn't care when it happened, only to bring it up later to cause drama.
I've missed locking the bidding threads a few times because I get home from work at about 5:30pm EST, and usually go straight to a nap, because otherwise I have trouble staying up on Wednesday nights. Most of the time I wake up around 7 EST to lock bids and prep for the run, occasionally I'll oversleep and wake up closer to the run time. On the particular run he mentions, I would've invalidated the locked bids, but another sackholder (*cough*) had told people that bids were valid if the thread was open, so I took the path that I thought would cause less drama and let them stand. On subsequent runs, I've enforced the timestamp rule, and have had no major issues with it.
I feel that it's important to add that his feelings about "enforcing the rules" only apply when he agrees with them. When he's been on melee jobs, I've caught him "calling" on his own repeatedly. What I mean is that he ignores the caller's called mob and picks another which he believes should've been called instead, and starts soloing it. In a stricter LS, I would've kicked him on the spot, particularly after his explanation that he's doing it because he's better than the callers, and that he'll continue to do it until the callers wisen up. He also encourages his clique of friends to do it, and he similarly ignores when they cause drama or violate rules.
All in all, while I don't like seeing members leave, I can't help but feel that he's making the right decision. With how he acts, it's pretty clear that RB isn't the right LS for him, and I hope he can find one where they'll appreciate his unique contributions as a member.
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Post by Sumira on Jul 12, 2008 12:06:12 GMT -5
If only everyone could see that response, I'm sure more than just Gawyn would benefit from reading it. I really dislike people can't really see past their lust for items.
Good show Sah o.o-b
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Post by sahearniitth on Jul 12, 2008 12:40:18 GMT -5
I realize you have your hands full during runs Cleo which is why I blame members for when they allow slip ups to happen and only bitch later on. I run 2 computers during runs (when I am at home, not right now) in order to be able to deal with the things I do. Even then I have it much easier as if I need to look up somthing I can do it right after a pull or a mass link (or after I die). I completelly understand that mages dont have the luxary melee do during runs. As I said if members would limit their bitching to actual issues rather than snitching on minor details in order to better their chances on drops then SH could deal much better. In addition to CSS, I was also surprised that Ali was apparentlly allowed to go negative on the Hydra Beret since I really have trouble beliving no one with points wanted to lot it but again, I understand slip ups happen and it doesnt help to point them out later. CSS tries to show up to what he can for as long as he can. If I added up the time he attends during a month he could stay off probation, but it isnt how we do things and its his bad luck he cant stay for entire runs.
I think your call to invalidate bids made after the cutoff mark is a good one. We had previouslly refrained from doing it to add some randomness to when they were locked to keep people from posting a bid RIGHT at the cutoff time but at this point in time I think your call is more valid with the way people are complaining.
Gawyn when he follows instructions can be a useful member because of his flexibility. However when he chooses to be disruptive it simply isnt worth it. While I was polite to him, his entire rant stems from him wanting to get desired items faster, which given that hes just been in shell for 4.5 months is pretty ridiculous, esp since he is rarelly willing to take the gambles with waiting that are inherent in our lotting system. He basically wants to get items on a priority basis because he feels he is "better" or "more deserving" of drops than people who levelled a job after him which is a ridiculous attitude to have espeically in dynamis. After taking a second look at his application I didnt even feel guilty about him getting shafted on RDM since he cleally said he wanted to finish BRD and said nothing about RDM.
While some parts of the response would be good for members to read, Gawyn chose to pursue this in PMs so I dont want to drag it out onto the forums since it will cause needless drama between cliques. However if he chooses to leave and wants to bitch out the SH or the Shell when he does I will respond again ofcourse (although I still wont post his PM).
On a side note I AM planning to open up BLM soon because the current BLM attendence roster is pitiful atm with only 3 members in the 80+ range and a total of only 7BLMs on the roster even if you factor in people on probation who have attendend over the past month (even if only once). However I didnt want that to figure into his decsion and so am holding off on it for a week or so.
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Post by Cleophie on Jul 12, 2008 13:19:19 GMT -5
Ali actually lotted and won that beret against others on open lot, but I wasn't in the run, so I couldn't see who was lotting and winning. I wasn't particularly comfortable doing loot for a run that I wasn't participating in, but apparently I was the only one with a PC available to check forums. It's telling that he mentions one incident of "incorrect loot distribution" where he felt slighted, but neglects to mention the one involving his close friend slighting someone else.
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Post by sahearniitth on Jul 13, 2008 8:20:28 GMT -5
Response from Gawyn
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I will try to address each of your points
After the first run i did with rb you asked me what i wanted to mainlot sublot. At that time i expressed some interest in seeing what i could play on; furthermore, i thought i left it open in my application that i would love to mainlot blm or rdm, but i was aware that due to their availability i was probably not going to be allowed to do those.
This was never mentioned to me by either Sydney or yourself.
This, truthfully, is the specific issue over which i am most insulted. Since i was the only member to even express interest, i do not understand why it would not be the policy of this linkshell to at least allow me to be up for rdm when the 1 month cooldown period has expired. I am member-in-good standing in this linkshell, i don't afk during runs, and i do my job. You know what you have in me, whereas no one knows what these outside rdm's will be like. I don't understand why a spot would not be reserved for me in 1 month's time, it is very offensive to me.
With regard to Leosin, he had competition between 2 other member for switching to blm main, i was the only one who asked for rdm.
My point here is to say that I don't get anything from these zones yet i respectfully show up and pay to get others gear. Yet with everything else that has occurred it makes it more difficult for me to accept 40% outlands per month. I understand this is the stage of development that rb is at, and i would be willing to accept that if i knew i was making progress towards my goals.
While i can understand that, he has seemingly made a point of attending for the past month on brd, so i guess that would comprise it having become the "norm." I don't believe members should be showing up on their poorly equipped 4th and 5th jobs when they have a stage 5 completed relic GKT.
With all due respect i have been a SH in SnD for like 3 years, so you will get no sympathy from me with regards to knowing what is expected of SH as leaders; furthermore, i used to do the same exact thing for SnD dynamis, and i have the capability of knowing how to distribute gear in my shell with regard to HNM's.
Dynamis does not have anything unexpected because all of the statues/eyes are in the same exact place every time and pop the same number of mobs every time; however, that did not stop us from wiping in windurst because the SH present did not understand the pulls. Since you guys have been doing dynamis for 4+ years i don't think that is acceptable.
There were people interested in the nin body before it went freelot but no one was aware of the probationary status. Clearly, that should be something a SH should be aware of when only 18 ppl enter a zone. I generally have pen and paper handy to jot down important notes to myself.
With all due respect, you could have fooled me because from a person not in Anduril that is the EXACT appearance.
I did not want you to change the rules overall (if that was unclear let me dispel that), my intent was to wonder why the job quota needed to be filled this month, which is what i stated above that is the ultimate reason i am confused. When i am the only member to show interest in switching to rdm mainlot, i show up to every run for which i can conceivably be online, i don't have shoddy gear, and i do my job effectively why should i be precluded in 2 weeks time from switching to add 2 new members right now? It boggles my mind why preference should be given to people of which we have no idea when you have a member you know and (hopefully) trust willing to switch right now.
I put in like 5-6 months on my mainlot to acquire 1 piece of gear. Because of shitty drop rates i got my 1 piece at 5 months and 3 weeks (w/e the timeframe, just an approximation), so therefore i am locked out of this switch for potentially another 4-6 months as i see it.
My friends are just as confused at your decision to let in 2 outside rdm now vs. waiting for 2 weeks for an existing member as i am.
I am not ungrateful in the slightest; frankly, that is one of the reasons why i would never raise all of the issues here and in my previous pm, and not on the public forums. I feel like i am a loyal member, but when i see something that offends me i am going to react.
Overall I think of you as a fair individual; however, i can not understand your position on this issue. In August i would be eligible to switch to rdm. The fact of the matter is you are letting 2 rdm into this shell 2 weeks before i would be able to switch. Waiting 2 weeks to allow the only member who expressed interest to switch to rdm is NOT twisting the rules, I would consider that rewarding a dedicated member.
I have a lot to think over. I am a loyal person and the 6 months i have put into this shell has made me care about all of the members in it. I have not made my decision one way or another and i will attend dynamis on sunday.
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Post by sahearniitth on Jul 13, 2008 8:21:50 GMT -5
My response (smaller this time)
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I feel that I addressed most of the major issues in the last PM but let me retouch and try to clarify certain issues you are raising.
While you DID express interest and frustration at the lotting situation concerning RDM after you joined I can post your whole application (although the lines I pointed out is the most pertinent) where it heavilly implies that your goal was BRD AF2 and didnt realyl touch on RDM other than to say your merits were not as extensive there as on BLM. You specifically stated you wanted the job with the least congestion (which at the time would have been BRD or THF). This is moot though because I understand your application may have been written under the assumption you couldnt get in on RDM or BLM. As for later, once we vote on a particular application for a particular job we do NOT let them change once they are let in the shell since that can affect their votes. Yumera had a similair request and I told him/her no as well.
In reagards to the zone issue, I am sorry if you feel slighted in that but thats tghe nature of almost any HNM game. You dont go after what one member wants all the time, you need balance. A large majoirty of the shell prefers CoP zones due to the items as well as the reduced length. Actually for every person intersted in doing more cities we probally have an equal number pushing for mopre Tavnazia. In fact most of the SH WANT to do more Tav, yet we do 7 zones a month that most of us have no interest in lotting anything from and continue to pay fees for a chance at Tav drops. In this sense I dont really sympathize that you feel its wrong for you to have to pay for zones where you dont want gear since pretty much everyone in the LS has to do it as well. Despite what you say you ARE making progress towards your goals, albeit at a speed this slower than a shell that spams cities.
In regards to the pulls, I tend to be main puller for runs. Around the time I left we also lost the secondary puller with the most experience which has lead to new people having to learn the pulls. This is also why I say the membership is at fault since I KNOW there are people in the shell who KNOW the pulls but they tend not to speak up or volunteer to help out until after a wipe at which point they will go on abut what was done wrong rather than trying to help out with future pulls. I dont think its reasonable to expect SH to have complete knowledege of every aspect of Dynamis when we have trouble getting people to want to be SH in the first place. If people were jumping at the oppurtunity to be SH then its one thing, as it is we dont have that luxary.
Please do point out specific situations where you feel Anduril members are getting special treatment or consideration over other members. I have already pointed out that an Anduril member failed to get into the shell a few weeks back based on votes and I also pointed out that the last members I actually kicked from RB were Anduril as well. I dont see how Anduril members could get special consderation in lotting since lotting is based on points which are tracked and I dont rememebr the last time an Anduril member was on the recieving end of a slip up in terms of lotting.
In regards to the main issue, that of letting new mainlots as RDM when you would be up soon. You can look at things in a certain way and claim you were slighted. I conceede that it IS bad luck on your part that the BRD pants dropped when they did. Had they not dropped or dropped sooner you would have been clear to switch to RDM. However at the same time from my point of view, things are slightlly different. I have to wait till the cutoff to contact people who are "waiting" to submit an application. Said application has to be processed by SH first and then is posted in the member section for voting. Sure from your point of view its 2 weeks, but from the time I posted in forums for memebrs to switch its been a month already. Moreover if I let you switch on the basis of what you posted in forums and the following situation it wouldnt be fair to "lock" the thread for other members who since got items. If Yumerea gets THF hands in Xarc this week and then wants to switch should I keep holding on a spot for her? Or for someone else who is seeing all the new RDM we are adding and might have not wanted to switch to RDM intially but sees it as a better strategic move now, should I accomodate them as well? It would be only fair if I was to give you consideration for a switch in Aug to extend that coutsey to others who may have changed their mind.
This is why I have extended talks with people who are wanting a specific mainlot. However I have said before this is a huge gamble. Lets (for the sake of argument) say you wanted BLM mainlot really badlly when you first applied back in Feb. If you had talked to me I would have told you BLM was locked and your options were THF or BRD. I would have told you that your other option was to wait till we had an opening in BLM. You pick the latter. Its been nearlly 6 months since then and we still arnt at a point to take BLM from outside the shell. During this time you could have been getting BLM from sublot (as you have been) or getting nothing at all. On the flip side had you asked for a RDM main you could have gotten lucky this past month (Zom and Aminah had submitted apps before you and were on hold) or if someone else wanted to switch you would have been sitting around longer. All in all its a gamble. Like I said talk to Sonnus if you are on good terms with him about the discussions I had with him concerning him wanting to join on RDM somtime whenever it opened (weeks - months) or just joining on WHM.
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